Mimi MacLean:
Welcome to The Badass CEO podcast. This is Mimi MacLean. I'm a mom of five, entrepreneur, Columbia Business School grad, CPA and angel investor. And I'm here to share with you my passion for entrepreneurship.

Mimi MacLean:
Throughout my career, I have met many incredible people who have started businesses, disrupted industries, persevered, and turned opportunity into success. Each episode, we will discuss what it takes to become and continue to be a badass CEO directly from the entrepreneurs who have made it happen.

Mimi MacLean:
If you are new in your career, dreaming about starting your own business, or already an entrepreneur, The Badass CEO podcast is for you. I want to give you the drive and tools needed to succeed in following your dreams.

Mimi MacLean:
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Mimi MacLean:
Hi. Welcome back to The Badass CEO. This is your host, Mimi MacLean. Today, we have on Cindy Cowan and she is an Emmy Award winning and Oscar-nominated producer. She has also received the Woman of the Year Award in 2018 for Women's Image Network and the Humanitarian of the Year Award in 2019 from the Hollywood Women's Film Institute.

Mimi MacLean:
Cindy is currently the chief strategy officer of Mogul Productions and is working to revolutionize the NFT film and music industry. To get your Top 10 tips Every Entrepreneur Should Know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips.

Mimi MacLean:
Thank you so much for coming on today. You have done so many things. I don't even know where to start, because you're an Emmy award winning producer. You've also been nominated for an Oscar. Now, you are part of a new company called Mogul Productions, which is the hot thing, because of NFTs.

Mimi MacLean:
There's so much to unpack here. I would love for you to first talk about ... Because I'm just excited that you won an Emmy and have been nominated for an Oscar. It's very impressive. Especially, as a woman. A little bit about your path with that?

Cindy Cowan:
I got in the film business an unconventional way. I actually went to school for psychology. Graduated from both Tulane and then Harvard. Took that infamous year off that we should never take. I went back to Florida on that year off and needed a night job, because I had fallen in love with the singer of a band.

Cindy Cowan:
To my parents chagrin, I needed to figure something out, since they had just paid for me to go to college. The job that I chose was working for a CBS affiliate in news. I ended up ... I kept graduating up until I became associate producer of a CBS affiliate. That got me into the production bug.

Cindy Cowan:
I ultimately stopped news, because it was ... Every time I got a phone call, it was for something depressing. There's another rape. There's another murder. A house burned down. Something bad happens. And I remember saying to the executive producer, "How do you handle this," after a while. He said, "Don't worry. You'll get used to it."

Mimi MacLean:
You're like, "I don't want to get used to it."

Cindy Cowan:
Exactly. I never ever wanted to flatline for things that are so important in life. Actually, the last story that I was set to cover there was a decapitation of a little boy named Adam Walsh who was kidnapped from a department store in Hollywood, Florida, which is where I grew up.

Cindy Cowan:
And the news station wanted me to cover that story. That was the last story. That was it. That ended my news career. And then, unconventionally, I jumped in as a songwriter. I had somebody when I stepped back that said, "Could I put lyrics to music?" I was like, "No. One thing has nothing to do with another."

Cindy Cowan:
They said, "Well, you write copies so quickly." And I'm like, "No I can't." But I'm the kind of person that doesn't like the word, "I can't." So I did. I sent the first song that I'd written to a person that I had met when I did my junior abroad in London. He worked for BMI Music and I never thought he'd even respond.

Cindy Cowan:
I just said, "I'm a songwriter now and somebody needs to listen to this." He ended up calling me a couple weeks later and he said, "Start a publishing company, because we want to take your song." That was interesting, because Simon Cowell and I came up together. It was Simon Cowell's first artist named Sinitta and the album went top 10 all throughout Europe.

Cindy Cowan:
I became a songwriter and that brought me to LA. I came in as a songwriter, not anything in film. Ended up writing for a group called Shalamar. Howard Hewitt. For Engelbert Humperdinck. It was just weird. I didn't think of myself as a songwriter. To me, it was a hobby. And I was laughing that anybody took anything I had done.

Cindy Cowan:
And so, I started nosing about in the film world and started from the ground up. And then, I had made a decent amount of money as a songwriter and decided to put it all into film. I just decided to back myself. I do not recommend this for other people. I just was analyzing the business.

Cindy Cowan:
At the time when I was coming up, a studio film was 10 million and up. That's how far we've come. An independent movie was three million and under. And I just said, "Well, who's doing that middle range?" That six and seven million dollar range.

Cindy Cowan:
I decided to become that. Everybody told me I'd fail. And if I did, I did. But I didn't. I ended up having one of the most successful, independent finance slash distribution companies. In the five years that I owned it, we had Emmy nominations, Golden Globes, People's Choice. And then, I sold it on a film that had four Oscars.

Mimi MacLean:
That's amazing.

Cindy Cowan:
It was a hell of a ride. It was never supposed to happen.

Mimi MacLean:
And then, did you self-teach yourself? Or how did you learn? Did you learn as you went?

Cindy Cowan:
I don't totally recommend doing what I did. I think there's some people that do better in school, and there's some people that do better by being thrown into a fire. I'm the latter. I self-taught.

Cindy Cowan:
I literally started as a PA and more worked my way up. Went through acquisitions. Went on my first film set as an exec. And then, started my own company. But it was all trial and error. I can teach everybody what not to do.

Mimi MacLean:
Oh my goodness. What lessons would you have learned in the entertainment industry as a female? For anyone who might be listening, who's trying to get into the entertainment world or make their way up.

Cindy Cowan:
Sure. I loved being a female in this business, but I was the first female distributor ever. I paved a way where other girls hadn't. I think you can play a victim or you can play a hero. I loved being a female, because it got me in the doors. Now, you have to be smart enough to stay in those doors.

Cindy Cowan:
People are opening and letting you in a room. Probably, for all kinds of reasons. None of which might be the reason that you're choosing to enter. But once I got in the room, I'm happy to play in the old boys club. I used my femininity to get me in there. And then, you just have to be a step smarter or equally as smart in order to stay.

Cindy Cowan:
Once you are, there's a very healthy respect. But I never dated anybody that was in the room. I never slept with anybody. I never did things that girls might do. If a man wants to compliment me, I take the compliment. Because I don't understand how girls get insulted by that.

Cindy Cowan:
But you don't egg it on. You stay professional at all times. And I did. Once people realized, "Wait ..." I knew what I was talking about. I think it actually helped me. A lot of men might have still been waiting for that door to open. But again, because I was a female, I jumped the line so to speak. I love what I am.

Mimi MacLean:
That's great. And then, in 2019, you were awarded the Humanitarian of the Year Award for Hollywood Women's Film Institute. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Cindy Cowan:
Charity is everything to me. I don't know why. It's been my entire life. I was the girl that ... In fact, my dad has crazy stories. When I was a little girl, I passed a cattle trailer. They were taking cows to be slaughtered.

Cindy Cowan:
I ended up saving this scrawny little calf. I put him in the back of my car. I thought my dad was going to have a heart attack, because I came home ... I think I was 16 at the time. I've always been that girl.

Cindy Cowan:
I volunteered in physical therapy when I was in high school. I just truly believe in paying it forward. That's not even hearsay. If I have a dollar, you can have it. I'm confident. I'll figure out how to make it again.

Cindy Cowan:
I don't do charity to get awards. I do it because it's truly the thing that makes me the happiest. I was flattered to get nominated and to ultimately win that. I think, out of any award that I've ever won, it's the one that I'm the most proud of.

Mimi MacLean:
Was there a specific organization that you work with or that you help?

Cindy Cowan:
I work with a bunch of them. I was the West Coast Chair for about eight years of something called Little Kids Rock. That charity is still near and dear to my heart. We opened up after-school programs in inner city areas and we did it free of charge.

Cindy Cowan:
We teach the teachers how to teach music for kids. And then, we give musical instruments, guitars, keyboards, drums to each child. Unlike a lot of the other music charities, we actually take note that Sally Smith got a keyboard on such and such a date. We try to monitor that student, sometimes as early as seven years old, all the way till they graduate high school.

Cindy Cowan:
We became the number one charity on Charity Navigator and at one point had over 500,000 kids in our program. I think we're in 48 states. The thing about those music programs ... They're not what people necessarily think. It's not, "Oh great. We're teaching a kid how to play an instrument."

Cindy Cowan:
We're teaching right and left brain thinking. I'm helping keep kids off the streets. I'm giving them an alternative to going into gangs and drugs and et cetera, et cetera. And if they missed even two weeks, we kicked them out of the program unless they had a really good excuse. I was super proud of that and I ran that for years.

Cindy Cowan:
But then, I'm involved with all other things. There was a charity that I love also called We Care Solar. For $5,000, you can buy a solar suitcase that lights up an operating room in a third world country. A lot of people don't realize that darkness means death. As the sun goes down, if you need an operation, a lot of times you can't get one. Or they're trying to operate by candlelight.

Cindy Cowan:
For a limited amount of money, you can literally light up an operating room and save lives. My charities have been all over the place. Because I love music, at one point I was involved with Linkin Park. We would go in right after natural disasters, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, whatever.

Cindy Cowan:
We wouldn't necessarily wait for government sanctions to come in and drop off blankets and food and whatever was needed. I think as soon as I get back from shooting this next movie, my next thing is homeless. I try to pick charities that I see and that affect me, even though not directly.

Cindy Cowan:
And so, homelessness is a crisis that I definitely need to address. As is, I try to go out about once a month and fill my car with at least a hundred meals. And I drive around LA and always feed the homeless. I think it's really important.

Cindy Cowan:
I've taken some of my friends that are like, "Wait, you do?" They're all shocked. They're like, "Well, why don't you do it through a charity?" I want to make sure the food goes where it goes. Plus, I want to see the streets on my own. People think it's dangerous. I don't get out of my car.

Cindy Cowan:
Most of the people say, "God bless you," and want to tell you their story. I wish more people would do what I'm doing. Just to actually see. I find that so many people talk about things, but they don't do anything about it.

Cindy Cowan:
I always tell my friends, "It doesn't matter how much money you've got. There is something you can do." You could go hug people for a day and that's going to change someone's life. You can do anything. Volunteer. Do anything whatsoever. And so, I'm one of the people that work so that I can do these things.

Mimi MacLean:
To help. You can give. Once you sold your company, is that when you decided to become the chief strategy officer for Mogul Productions? Or is there something in between that?

Cindy Cowan:
No, no, no. I sold the company at one point. Literally, to become a girl again. I had been engaged to be married. And the film business is a very hard business to keep a relationship for a girl. You have to have a very understanding man.

Cindy Cowan:
I'm either always going off to a set or I'm sitting in an editing room or I'm at a bank closing. And so, I decided after years of being in the business that I just wanted to get back to my Southern roots and be a girl. And so, when I quit, I actually did nothing for a couple of years.

Cindy Cowan:
I traveled the world and I just tried to become incredibly feminine again. The problem for me was ... Because I'd already run a company, it was very difficult for me to take a backseat and say, "I have not done anything. I'm just going to be the girlfriend or the wife."

Cindy Cowan:
And so, I've had to figure out the happy medium and find the right person to go along for my journey. But Mogul came about during quarantine, actually. I had a film that I'm actually about to shoot now, that got shut down twice in the past two years due to COVID.

Cindy Cowan:
Mogul approached me and I wasn't doing anything and I loved learning. It was a whole different side of the business than I had ever known, which is the tech side. Much more than NFTs.

Cindy Cowan:
It's the whole crypto world and crypto financing and getting into NFTs with all kinds of technology. And so, they approached me and it was a godsend. I loved learning and being a part of them while we were stuck in our homes.

Mimi MacLean:
That's great. They're using NFTs to finance the movies? Is that how they're ...

Cindy Cowan:
They will, eventually. NFTs are brand new in the entertainment world. The new talk is NFTs and financing films. NFTs are new, as you know. Mogul was one of the first people to get into creating NFTs. We did our first NFT drop about eight months ago. I brought a friend of mine, Rob Prior, to them.

Cindy Cowan:
He's one of Marvel's biggest illustrators. Typically, his artwork had gone for about $20,000 a sell. We had him paint live on a Mogul platform for all of Mogul's people. He did The Wolf of Wall Street. It was a 24-hour auction. He, like I said, painted live on it. It went for $200,000.

Cindy Cowan:
He made a lot more money than he ever has before. He actually went from ... I forgot what number artist he was in the world. He jumped all of a sudden to number 11. And it was great for him. It was great for us. Now, without naming names, we're doing NFTs for a lot of actors. That will be launching soon.

Cindy Cowan:
And in the film world, we're learning like everybody else. But NFTs will become valuable, because you can turn things into NFTs to both help finance your film or to make additional financing after your film is complete. Right now, with streamers, it's harder believe it or not. Not easier to make your money back.

Cindy Cowan:
When I was coming up, you knew that a film would make X amount of money, because you had video and you had different kinds of platforms that you could sell it to. And if your film performed theatrically, you could make all this money. Now, with Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and the rest of them ... It's a one-time buyout and then you don't make anything.

Cindy Cowan:
And so, NFTs are a way for, especially, indie producers to have additional revenue streams. Whether it's selling a song that you might be using as the title song. You can turn around and sell that NFT. Or whether it's selling the NFT drawing of the costume. Imagine if you had the Batman costume from way back when? That would be incredibly valuable.

Cindy Cowan:
There's any number of things. I think we're all in it together and it's very new, but people seem very, very interested in it. You could sell the script. There's all different things that could be sold. Especially, to the right fan base.

Mimi MacLean:
And the actors. How does that work with NFTs and the actors?

Cindy Cowan:
You have to get the actor's permission and it really depends. I think the hardest thing will be with NFTs ... It's not so much the actors, it's the acquisition to the streamers.

Cindy Cowan:
If Netflix were to come on board and buy my movie in advance of the movie filming ... They might not allow the NFTs to go, because then Netflix will own it all.

Cindy Cowan:
But if you're an indie producer financing your own movie, and you want to get additional revenue streams and you have the actor's permission ... Then, the actor would share in the NFT profit.

Mimi MacLean:
And that's all for when you're ... If it ever goes into the Metaverse, where there'd be showing the movie there.

Cindy Cowan:
Or it's on your phone. Or it's on your tablet, whatever.

Mimi MacLean:
Anything digital.

Cindy Cowan:
It's not only Metaverse. I think NFTs are, "Look. You could go buy the Mona Lisa." You could buy ... The thing that I don't quite understand about NFTs and its coming, are people buying the NFT real estate. The fact that a house could sell for 2.8 million.

Mimi MacLean:
In Malibu or something?

Cindy Cowan:
And it's not real. It's strange to me.

Mimi MacLean:
Right? It is.

Cindy Cowan:
But it's the Metaverse coming. But I don't want to live as an avatar in someone else's home for that money. It's insane. I'm clinging onto the semblance of still having real life.

Mimi MacLean:
I just watched that movie and I can't think of his name. The one ... Is it Ryan?

Cindy Cowan:
Fall Guy was great.

Mimi MacLean:
I watched that, because someone was like, "That's the closest you're going to get to what we're talking about."

Cindy Cowan:
Ready Player One is another one that's very close to this.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. You're like, "Okay. I can't ..." It's just hard to get the reality of what is happening.

Cindy Cowan:
Kids are used to it anyways, because a lot of kids never leave their phones, which I don't ... And so, if your whole life is spent looking at your phone or playing a game, then it's better to be an avatar and go into the universe so that you're legitimately there.

Cindy Cowan:
But I'm old school. We're old school. I want to still live my life as long as I can in the real world, before I'm forced to go into the Metaverse.

Cindy Cowan:
As we were saying ... A lot of my meetings right now, because of COVID, are made on Zoom. But I could speak to you every day on a Zoom and not feel as connected to you as I would if we spent one hour at lunch. But that's it.

Mimi MacLean:
But I guess these meetings that are going to be in the Metaverse are almost 3D? As if they're sitting next to you? I was watching one. I was like, "Oh my gosh. This is crazy." Some of you could be live and some of you would just be a silhouette.

Cindy Cowan:
A lot of it is holograms. That's what's coming.

Mimi MacLean:
It's just crazy.

Cindy Cowan:
But I want to smell you. See you. Connect with you.

Mimi MacLean:
I know.

Cindy Cowan:
A hologram ... Your hand still goes through it.

Mimi MacLean:
I'm not sure if you know this or not ... But only 1.7% of women ever reach a million dollars in sales when they start a company, which is so low. They either fail or they just stay below a million dollars.

Mimi MacLean:
I would love to know your take on what it takes to be successful, to reach that? Is there a characteristic? Is there something that you did? Is there any recommendations or strategies you would recommend?

Cindy Cowan:
In regards to that percentage that you said, I'd bet that percentage changes now. I think that percentage was probably so low before, because a lot of girls weren't going into the workforce. And I think ...

Mimi MacLean:
This is last year's American Express. That one.

Cindy Cowan:
Wow. It's shocking to me. I read that and I was quite shocked. Contrary to what a lot of people think and do and what works for them ... I guess I'm blessed that I don't have to do it.

Cindy Cowan:
Some of my friends journal every day. Some of my friends write there to-do lists every day. Some of my friends meditate every morning on what they want. All of those things are great.

Cindy Cowan:
And I think that people should do them to get them into the proper mindset. I was lucky enough to be born with this weird mindset where anything I wanted, I was going to achieve. I think that's the mindset that people have to go into.

Cindy Cowan:
When I started a film company ... Was I scared? Absolutely. Was I too scared to try? Absolutely not. I think the problem for most girls, and I find this with a lot of my girlfriends ... I can be friends with them for over 10 years, and I will hear them starting six different companies over the 10 years.

Cindy Cowan:
But of those six different companies they're starting, they haven't started it yet. All they do is talk about it. So many people are guilty about this. I myself have done that before. Where, "I really want to do this." You're like, "Darn. Why didn't I do it?" But I never ever took any steps in order to achieve it.

Cindy Cowan:
When I was starting in the film business, my background was psychology, but I did it. I got myself on sets. I remember when I first started working for companies, I was the person that volunteered for everything. I always tell my assistants that there's never too much you can do.

Cindy Cowan:
Meaning, I wanted to go deliver the mail to somebody. I wanted to go take the packages, because I knew I was going to talk to that person on the other side. And I wanted to meet them. I wanted to be the person running over to the set, if I could, because I wanted to be on a set.

Cindy Cowan:
There was nothing that was too low for me. By the way, even at my height, there's nothing too high for me either. I'm still the last one to leave. I'm sweeping the floors with everybody else. I'm getting to know my grips and lighting people.

Cindy Cowan:
I just think it's having the mindset that you're not good enough to start and you're not too high to ever come down. To realize that you're never going to do anything unless you start. The biggest thing that I can tell everybody is ... Most people never start, all they do is talk about it.

Cindy Cowan:
That is my lesson literally to everybody. You have to start somewhere. People just don't. They don't. They live in, "Oh no. But I can't do this, because ..." Don't say, "You can't do it, because ..." Why don't you change the narrative to, "I can do this, because ..." That'll change everything.

Mimi MacLean:
Do you feel like you've had to give up stuff? You obviously had to give up stuff. But do you look back like, "I gave up this and I regret it." Or, "I wish I didn't." Or, "I wish I would've done it differently."

Cindy Cowan:
I don't think I would change anything in my life. I don't really live in regrets. But I definitely gave up my personal life for this. I had so much to prove by starting my company. I was the first female doing it. I was going against my family and none of the girls in my family had worked.

Cindy Cowan:
Now, I was in a whole new state and a whole new career that I didn't even go to school for. I knew that I couldn't fail. I had too many people that told me I couldn't, so I had to. But I gave up a personal life. Not that I didn't have amazing boyfriends throughout, but they came second. They always knew that. And so, it was tough.

Cindy Cowan:
Also, in the entertainment business, you have to be tough. As a female, that's the only thing I will say, is you have to be thick-skinned. You have to be really tough. I became too tough at one point. That's why I retired for years. Every other word out of my mouth was a cuss word, just so that I could be on the equal playing field as some of the men.

Cindy Cowan:
Again, my boyfriends who would say, "You've got to stop," or, "It's got to be us this weekend," or whatever ... Had to take a second seat to actors calling at all different times of day and night, and me constantly taking calls from all over the world. Because there was always another film to put together. Or always another producer or writer or director that had to be met.

Cindy Cowan:
When I retired, I realized that will never happen again. One of my big takeaways that I would tell anybody is, you have to find a balance in your life. No matter what it is. I don't care if you're madly in love. Find a balance to not make your whole world just be about that guy.

Cindy Cowan:
And if you're in business, I get it that you want to succeed. But if you're not true to yourself and happy with yourself ... You could be the most successful person in the world, but you're not going to be complete.

Cindy Cowan:
Going forward, my weekends are my weekends. I used to be a workaholic. No. I want personal time and it's really important. The next man that got me, got a much more complete and better person. I'm definitely a girlfriend when we're together. And I'm definitely still the beast when we're not.

Mimi MacLean:
That's awesome. When I moved to LA, and I would go into people's houses ... I remember walking in and being like, "Wait. There's an Academy Award just sitting there. There's an Emmy just sitting there." You always think ... Where do you keep yours?

Cindy Cowan:
Mine's on my mantel on my fireplace. It's great. There's a bunch of awards there. I actually had an actress walk in and move it there. I had it on a table in a den and somebody was like, "You're nuts. You need to show this off."

Cindy Cowan:
And so, it proudly sits there. Actually, the Emmy was shocking. It was the first year of lockdown, when we couldn't leave our homes for going into month five or whatever in Los Angeles. We were really locked down and it was my birthday.

Cindy Cowan:
I hadn't seen another soul for months. I did this documentary, that I didn't even think would be seen, let alone get the Emmy. And so, that Emmy arrived the day before my birthday and was the greatest birthday present I could ever get.

Mimi MacLean:
That's awesome. Congratulations. Too bad you couldn't do it in person, right? You waited all this time to get to stand up on stage and give your speech.

Cindy Cowan:
I know. At least I had someone to quarantine with. I had Emmy. Me and Emmy. I would share her right now, but my house is all wrapped up.

Mimi MacLean:
What movie was it for?

Cindy Cowan:
That was for a documentary called Miracle on 42nd Street.

Mimi MacLean:
Awesome. I'll have to go watch that. That's awesome. That's exciting. Well, this has been amazing.

Mimi MacLean:
Is there anything that we haven't covered or addressed that you would like to cover? Or any last-minute tips?

Cindy Cowan:
Whatever you want. I don't know. I'm happy to speak to anybody ever. Like I said, my thing is giving back. Whatever you make, give back a little bit. Because I honestly believe the universe pays it forward. I really do.

Mimi MacLean:
Especially, I also say not just in charitable ... I really believe women need to help other women out.

Cindy Cowan:
A hundred percent.

Mimi MacLean:
And if someone calls and asks you to talk to them on the phone, even though it's super busy, say yes.

Cindy Cowan:
Absolutely. I'm two weeks away from leaving to Serbia to go shoot a movie and I made time to speak to you. I'm always about helping other females.

Cindy Cowan:
I love to empower them. To bring them with me. We're all going up and down. Let's meet halfway in the middle and just spread some joy in a time we really need it.

Mimi MacLean:
That's great. And I wish you luck. Safe travels. Good luck with your new movie, Cindy. It was such a pleasure meeting you.

Cindy Cowan:
You too.

Mimi MacLean:
Take care. Thanks so much.

Cindy Cowan:
Thank you.

Mimi MacLean:
Thank you for joining us on The Badass CEO. To get your copy of the Top 10 Tips Every Entrepreneur Should Know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips. Also, please leave a review, as it helps others find us.

Mimi MacLean:
If you have any ideas or suggestions, I would love to hear them. Email me at mimi@thebadassceo.com. See you next week and thank you for listening.