Mimi:
Welcome to the Badass CEO Podcast. This is Mimi MacLean. I'm a mom of five, entrepreneur, Columbia Business School grad, CPA and angel investor. And I'm here to share with you my passion for entrepreneurship. Throughout my career I have met many incredible people who have started businesses, disrupted industries, persevered, and turned on opportunity into success. Each episode, we will discuss what it takes to become and continue to be a badass CEO, directly from the entrepreneurs who have made it happen. If you are new in your career, dreaming about starting your own business, or already an entrepreneur, the Badass CEO Podcast is for you. I want to give you the drive and tools needed to succeed in following your dreams.

Mimi:
Before we get started today, I wanted to tell you about a great company I found that takes the stress out of all the legal stuff we hate to do. Corpnet helps me out with all my incorporation documents, trademark searches and filings, and keeps me compliant for state and federal filings. Corpnet makes it super easy and is reasonably priced. I even have my own Corpnet representative to call on when I have questions. I wish I'd found this company sooner. I would've saved money and slept better in knowing that I filed all the right forms for my company. To learn more, go to thebadassceo.com/corpnet.

Mimi:
Hi, welcome back to The Badass CEO. This is your host, Mimi MacLean. And today I have on Sarah Zapp and she is an entrepreneur, award-winning journalist, and a relationship curator. She's the CEO and Founder of Beyond Board. And beyond board is a community of today's best board members and board eligible executives, with events and advisors across the country and a mission to recruit more women and diversity on boards. Brown Brothers Harriman named her one of the 19 "Women to Watch" in 2019. And as a relationship curator, she currently advises, consults, and sits on the boards of advisors for various startups. She's passionate about board diversification, thought leadership, and building connections.

Mimi:
To get your Top 10 Tips Every Entrepreneur Should Know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips.

Mimi:
Sarah, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. Okay. So I loved your idea about Beyond Board because I feel like right now with everything that's going on, I think companies are having a really hard time finding great executives and great board members. So your platform is providing that opportunity for people to gather together and for you to then be able to just suggest great leaders. So I'd love to hear more about it and how you came up with the concept and what you were doing before.

Sarah:
I would love to say that this was perfectly planned out and then totally going according to plan, but not at all. Actually I had a whole background in television, in content. And then I went and I built out a national thought leader program and investor relations program for a young professional organization. So at this point here I am in my career and I understand the content side and I understand community. And with the business side of the investors and other great CEOs that I had been working with, I started looking at the boards. And I thought, this is where the real change happens. This was about the time that Uber was kicking Travis Kalanick out of his own company. And I was like, that's who's in charge. I was like, you can literally be the company and you are gone with the board.

Sarah:
And then you started looking at the impact and the ripple effect that the people on the board have with the direction of companies and corporate culture. And it just wasn't diverse. And the problem is everyone finds their board members through who they know. It's all who you know. And the problem is that who you know looks a lot like you. So we set out to create a new who you know. So we really take a community approach to meeting great new board directors. And so we would do content. We'd bring in great speakers. So we'd have Ariana Huffington. We had Judith McKenna, the CEO of Walmart International. Katie Couric did our last live event. These are the people our board directors wanted to hear from.

Sarah:
We specifically curated with women and people of color along with all the great white guys out there as well. We're inclusive because they all need to know each other so that they can have new great people of who they know when it comes time to find board directors. And then by building this community, networking them, getting them great content, then we have not only a database with great relationships. So companies can come to us and say, Hey, this is what we're looking for. And unlike recruiters, we don't say, yes, pay us money so we can introduce you. There are no excuses. We put together a curated list of who you're looking for. We make the personal introductions. And then if you take them, we end up taking a flat success fee. So we feel like we really can be candidates best advocates because we just want to get more great candidates having great conversations with companies.

Mimi:
That's great. I love that idea. And it seems like a great business model. Are you... So you're kind of running it as like a recruiting shop. And so are you charging also the people who are joining or just on the other end?

Sarah:
So there's a small membership fee, but that's not where we're looking to make our money. But you can all also join some of these without fully paying the membership fee. That's just full access to everything. So you can get onto our... We're launching a new platform. So you can get onto our platform, have access, have visibility, and that sort of thing because we just want to give people as much chances as possible. And the other side is we want them to network with each other as well. We want them to get to know each other because they can recommend people. So you meet someone through the community. Maybe you don't come to us to do a specific curated search for you. Maybe you've already found them. So that's really, to me, the benefit of kind of a community first approach. Not only do they kind of network and they have support and it builds great relationships. And then on the other side, we can just be a great advocate for companies and tool for them when they need somebody.

Mimi:
That's great. Has it been difficult for you to get your name out there to the companies who are looking for...

Sarah:
You know, a lot of the people who come to us, I mean, we do... We don't do anything too early stage. So it has to at least be really series B or series C. We do a lot of public companies. We'll do funds. We'll do specs. We'll do a variety of things that way. A lot of them are already in our community. So they come to us because they've got the boards and they're like, Hey, we need somebody new. Like great. It was a great public car company. We got a woman, her first board position. She was the first woman and person of color on the board. And then before you know it, a year later, they're like, we need somebody else. So, came back to me. And after she got that first board position, the next ones came. You get your first public board position and then boom. Now she's on a public pharmaceutical company. And it was really odd. She happened to sit on like the California Motor Board, just something that's appointed. Nothing big. Nothing that would get you a board position. But even just her knowledge and interest in cars and her tech background got her onto this incredible public board in the automotive space. And so you kind of find it's a rising tide sort of mentality. If you do good work, then the work is out there.

Mimi:
That's awesome. And what typically are you looking for, for other community members? But then also specifically, what are these boards looking for as far as experience from?

Sarah:
Well, I mean obviously if it's public boards, they're always looking for people who have public board experience. It's kind of the cart and the horse sort of thing. They like sitting C-suite executives, people who have run a P & L, people who know how to run a business. Oftentimes there's always the need for an audit chair. So someone who's got this CFO background. And of course there's industry expertise. And so those typical sorts of candidates as well. But when you're really starting to diversify, we also start to say, you know what if you look at someone who has an incredible digital marketing background, right? Look at your board from a portfolio perspective. What don't you have? Maybe you already have a couple of the great CEOs on there. Why don't you bring in someone that's an incredible digital marketing transformation expert. And it's not going to hurt you to have phone calls. We're not charging you in that capacity. So as long as they hit the expertise side and the experience side, then sometimes we encourage them to have conversations with candidates that they might not otherwise have.

Mimi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's great. And then what would you say so far has been your most difficult or the hardest part of growing?

Sarah:
I think that I wish I would've just charged so much money to meet these people because somehow in company's minds, you're not going to get a great candidate if you're not paying the top recruiter fees. If you're not paying $50,000 to $100,000 to place a board director, then there's no way they think they can be sending you someone good. So I almost feel like our approach of saying, no, we're not charging you upfront. Yes. We'll take a flat success fee, but it ends up being the most competitive in the market. So whereas a recruiter would charge up to a hundred thousand dollars, we end up taking anything between like 15 to 30 or 45, depending on if that's for a huge public company. So they think there's no way you can get that good equality for that kind of price. So I almost feel like I should have just almost arrogantly charged an obscene amount of money because that would've given us the credibility that we've got great people, but our track record has shown that.

Sarah:
And I think sometimes people have this illusion that you get what you pay for in that capacity. Like if I'm not paying a lot to find a good talent, then maybe they're not that good. Or maybe I didn't look that hard. And that's just a complete misnomer when you get somebody that checks all those boxes and you can't believe you found them, it's almost too good to be true from an aspect of what recruiters charge. And they do a great job by the way. I think there's a wonderful place for big recruiters out there. They charge a really pretty penny for it and they do a great job.

Mimi:
That's great. I mean, you know the stats probably just as well as I do because you're in this space. But the percentage of women that are in the C-suites and on boards, it's minuscule compared to men. What is your perception of why you think that is as far as like... And is there anything we can do, women to women to help? Is it mentoring these women more? Is it, I mean, is it just because they just don't have the network or is there any advice that you could give to increase it?

Sarah:
Yeah. First of all, I think that for women, they need to start changing their narrative. And I think that it's amazing. Look at the studies of how often will a guy go for a job in which they're not qualified for versus a woman going for a job that they're not qualified for? All the time. The studies show like a hundred percent of the time men go for jobs that they're not qualified for. A woman is like, no. I need to have a bit more experience. Nope. I didn't check off that box so I'm not going to apply. It's this sort of narrative that we tell ourselves in terms of being able to pursue things or do things, or maybe it's because we've got so many other things on our plate. So I think number one, the narrative that we can do it, we belong in the room. We have the expertise. We're just as smart. We're just as fearless. We can command the attention and get the work done. And I think the more you surround yourself with people doing that and having that narrative, it's a very contagious mentality. It really is a rising tide. You kind of become, your vibe as your tribe. And I think you need to surround yourself with those sorts of people. And you see a lot more of that with women executive organizations and this mentality of really kind of having that narrative.

Sarah:
And then on the second other hand, let's face it. Women, we're multitasking. We have a lot of other priorities. We take care of a lot of other people. And I think that at the end of the day, unless you have that kind of support in place and have set up that infrastructure for yourself on the personal side, whether you like it or not, you need to do if you want to have the same sort of opportunities. And that's a conversation on a personal side that you need to set up that infrastructure to devote yourself if that's how you want to prioritize. I think we're just too hard on ourselves too. Everyone has a different path. And so figuring how you are your best person as a CEO, I think makes you the best wife, mom, friend you can possibly be as well. And I think you can handle all of those roles. Maybe not a hundred percent all of them at one time, but I think that's very doable.

Mimi:
I do agree with you. I think women sell themselves short. If it's asking for a promotion, if it's walking into a room and they assume they know less and men assume they know more. But then do you find with the women that you're working with that are in your community, do they tend to mentor other women who haven't reached their level yet? I think that's another big gaping... The women don't tend to get mentors as much. I think there's a percentage like the top 70% of men have mentors where women it's like in the thirties or low forties.

Sarah:
You know what's so interesting? I get to see a lot of the behind the scenes with a lot of these other great CEOs of companies and board directors and whatnot. And the number of powerhouse dies who have a coach. Put aside mentors. They are paying someone professionally to be there for them. Not a therapist, but someone really to guide them and to help them be a voice and be a sounding board. They invest in themselves that way. Women are more likely maybe to go to therapy or have mentoring or whatnot. They specifically go towards having someone in their corner to professionally guide them. Or they'll go to an organization, maybe like a YPO to have someone to professionally guide them. At the end of the day, you need to find ways to invest in yourself as a leader. End a story, gender aside. And those who do that, invest in themselves one way or another through organizations, through coaching, through mentorship, towards classes, towards certificates or whatever it is, those are the ones that continue to, I think, evolve and stay at the top and be able to pivot.

Mimi:
I agree with you. It's always learning and having... I joined a mastermind last year and it's really helped. It's with like seven other like-minded businesses that we just compare notes every two weeks of what's going on.

Sarah:
And not to generalize here. But a lot of times women are nurturers. Like we're looking to take care of other things or our team or whatnot, and that's a beautiful attribute. But we have to do that for ourselves. We have to invest in ourselves. Who are we surrounding ourself with? Who is lifting us up? How are we putting into ourself mentally, learning wise, even support wise to be able to show up stronger and better. And I think oftentimes we don't take enough inventory of, okay, what am I doing for me and to stay at the top of my game?

Mimi:
You know, I find interesting, because my husband's been home for the past couple years working from home because he can't go to work because his office is overseas. But I listen to him talk to friends about something business or whatever. And sometimes I'll be like, I can't believe you guys can talk that way to each other. I find that if I were ever to say that to another female, like employee, friend, whatever, they would take it so personally. I would be like, I don't know if I'd have a friendship anymore or I don't even know if I'd have an employee. I just feel like it's funny how men can get away with talking to each other a little bit more. Like they razz each other, but then they don't take it personally. And then the next thing you know, they're drinking a beer like an hour later and they're totally fine.

Sarah:
I think in general the skill and ability not to take things personally is huge. And I think women struggle with that a bit more. And you've seen, there was a study done where emails were sent out and all they did was change who it came from. They switched. A guy and a girl switched their emails and the guy was shocked at the pushback he got sending an email as a woman. People questioning him, asking for follow up, needing further assistance or information. And the woman was shocked sending emails as the guy that they just took his word for it. They didn't question it. And it was a fascinating study on the way that information was received based solely on the gender of the sender of the email. S.

Sarah:
O I think the fact of the matter is it doesn't matter whether this is right or whether this is wrong, if it's happening, you have to just be aware of it. Okay. Like this is what's going on in this particular sense. How do you work with this? Instead of getting frustrated, how do you deal with it? How do you work with this? And you know, I think it's really interesting. You can see lots of different suggestions, even asking and suggesting for women. Instead of saying, I think, or following up on or just the way that we word some of our emails that comes from a much more empowering. Yes. Like if you can really even look at the way that you word your emails to come from a much more empowering, confident... And often how many times do women apologize? Oh, I'm so sorry I'm running late. I'm sorry that's taken a while, versus a thank you for your patience kind of narrative. And so these sorts of things I think are also a way that we can start to look at how we show up as a leader in our narratives, in our communication and the way that we put ourselves forward.

Mimi:
Yeah. I just read an article about what you just talked about. Like when you were responding to an email that you haven't responded to. Instead of apologizing, just saying thank you for your patience. I love that. Now you work with a lot of successful women who have reached the top of their game professionally. Have you seen a common trend or trait or characteristics among these women that got them there?

Sarah:
Yes. Number one, these women are very disciplined. They are disciplined, disciplined. And I think across the board, successful CEOs are disciplined. Doing what they need to do versus what they want to do sometimes. Two, highly motivated individuals. Doesn't mean you're passionate every single day, but you're motivated, highly motivated. And also I think that these women are good at saying no. They curate what they say yes to and no to, especially if they have a family. They really know what they can do, what they want to do, and they have the ability and choose to say no a lot more than they say yes. And I see that. They're very cognizant of the amount of time that they have. And they think about the event, the memo, the podcast, the whatever it is, meeting. And they say no when it doesn't fit into their best self and their best plan. So I think the discipline, the motivation, and the saying no I see as a theme.

Mimi:
When you say discipline, are you talking... I mean, obviously personally, like their morning routine and what they eat and like that? Are you talking...

Sarah:
That's part of it, but it's also with work. I mean, they work hard. They're very disciplined in showing up for work, continuing to get something through. Maybe when someone else would like to go or take a break or have a little fun, they will keep going. And they set up teams that keep going. And I think some of the best women and men in that capacity that do this well also really know how to outsource things. They're really good outsourcers. It's the only way that they can make themselves scalable, is to outsource things that don't necessarily need their personal skill and gift. And I see the successful ones really do that well.

Mimi:
That's great. And I'm trying to think, is there anything else I haven't covered that you think would be useful from your experience with working with your company and the community that you've created?

Sarah:
You know, the biggest thing... I did a national Ted...did a national women's conference and I put together a workshop and did a talk around networking versus relationship building. And I really think that people need to look at people in a different light. And I think you really need to personally understand what your personal thesis is on human connection. And I think you really need to value people and think about how you treat them and show up. My personal thesis on human connection is a Maya Angelou quote. People will forget what you did. People will forget what you said. People never forget how you made them feel. And to me, that's how I think about every single person that I come across. I think about how do I make you feel.

Sarah:
And even Chris Voss who wrote the book, Never Split the Difference. He taught me that the golden rule is not right. Treat others how you want to be treated. That's very egocentric. That's about me. I'm going to treat you how I want to be treated, right? So you're treating someone the way you see the world. He talks about the platinum rule. Treat others how they want to be treated. And I actually think when you start to take a little bit more holistic view about how you interact with people. Adam Grant, who wins? Givers, takers, or matchers? And really having even a generous attitude and really kind of taking a 360 approach to how you interact with people, whether it's on a personal level in your family, whether it's Cindy down here at Sinclair at the gas station, or whether it's the people on your team. I really think, and this is one of the strengths that I think women do really well is to really think about relationship building with people versus just networking or looking at someone through an agenda or a short sided vision approach.

Mimi:
And what's interesting about that because I think as entrepreneurs, especially women, there's so much going on and you're so...your brain's going a mile a minute. And for entrepreneurs or people running companies, it's like being able to slow down and doing what you're talking about. Because I feel like especially entrepreneurs have a lot going on. And so they sometimes can't explain themselves. At least I have a problem with this. I have so many ideas sometimes I don't explain myself thoroughly enough for people who work with me to get my point across. Or to give them the instruction to slow down, to realize that like their brain doesn't go as fast as mine because they're much more thorough and I'm not thorough. And you know what I mean? So it's just funny how I think a lot of women or entrepreneurs or CEOs, not everybody, but some have this problem where they have so much on their plate. It's just slowing down is hard.

Sarah:
I'll tell you right now, what are we seeing coming out of COVID? Talent is everything. Keeping good people in your company and hiring good people is the number one thing that leaders need to be doing well right now. Everyone needs good people. And so if you fundamentally just in general take this approach. Sure, we all get busy. But did you remember their birthday? Did you come back and did you show some appreciation of a very specific thing that they did? And I think the way that you treat people and think about them, I think is more important and powerful today more than anywhere because people really have a choice where they want to go. They want flexibility. If you don't want them, someone else will take them and pay them a lot more. So they stay there because they feel valued. They feel seen. They're excited about what they do. And that's your job as a leader to make them feel that way.

Sarah:
And so I really believe that taking that holistic approach and even owning it, Hey, I know I was very short this week. I was really, really busy but I really liked how you did X, Y, and Z. That goes a long way. And you doing that has the ripple down effect and the butterfly effect to everybody else that that's kind of the culture and the way that you think people should be treated. And I think it more important now more than ever with with the way that you treat people.

Mimi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, it's true. And I feel like with men, they tend to be...they find it easier to sit down and be like, Hey, this is what needs to be changed. I find myself and I find other women, sometimes it's harder to, you're just like, oh, I'm just going to stay quiet or not going to stay as much and hopefully it's going to change. And not like... And I've learned that when there's an issue, you have to lay it out and just explain yourself and explain the situation. It's a little bit more difficult I feel like as a woman than it is for a man. I don't know why they always seem to be able to just sit down and kind of say it as it is.

Sarah:
Yeah. And honestly, I... That's a nice expedited way to get to something. But honestly I think the strength is in asking questions versus throwing out statements and command.

Mimi:
It's true.

Sarah:
And I think that that's another way to really better understand perhaps why someone did that. You want to create the aha moment in their mind of why was that done? Like why are we doing it that way? And that takes a little bit more time and doesn't sometimes feel quite as efficient. But I think one of the keys is to ask more questions before the statements and the gauntlet comes down.

Mimi:
No, I love that. It's so true. Because then it's helping you understand them and where they're at and maybe you didn't know something instead of like questioning or...

Sarah:
And if nothing else, just the pure process makes them feel heard. You're not learning in anything if you're talking. Right?

Mimi:
No.

Sarah:
So if you can ask more questions, I always find that's a win.

Mimi:
And then just to end, I'm just... You got the Brown Brothers Harriman Award in 2019 for the "Women to Watch". Congratulations on that. And is that... How do you get an award like that?

Sarah:
You know what? I knew the people of Brown Brothers Harriman and they thought my work and what we were doing was really great and interesting. They work with so many great companies. They saw the need around board diversity and they saw that we were taking a unique approach to it. And so just kind of doing what you do and doing it well will guard with the attention. It's not something that you go out asking for or paying for, or that sort of thing. I feel like you just go out there and do the work and build the relationships and your name comes up.

Mimi:
That's awesome. Sarah, thank you so much.

Sarah:
Thank you.

Mimi:
Thank you for all that you're doing to get the diversity out there and getting us in boards and in higher positions and increasing those percentages. So thank you so much.

Sarah:
Such a pleasure. I love what you're doing, Mimi. Thank you.

Mimi:
Thank you. And thank you for your time. Take care.

Mimi:
Thank you for joining us on The Badass CEO. To get your copy of the Top 10 Tips Every Entrepreneur Should Know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips. Also, please leave a review as it helps others find us. If you have any ideas or suggestions, I would love to hear them. So email me at Mimi@thebadassceo.com. See you next week and thank you for listening.