The Badass CEO

EP 91: How Hillary Schafer is Elevating Public Service with One of the Longest Running Nonprofits

April 28, 2022 Mimi MacLean
The Badass CEO
EP 91: How Hillary Schafer is Elevating Public Service with One of the Longest Running Nonprofits
Show Notes Transcript

Hillary Schafer is the female CEO of one of the longest-running nonprofits in the USA - Multiplying Good. Multiplying Good focuses on elevating public service as a means to empower individuals. Prior to joining Multiplying Good in September 2013, Hillary Schafer worked on Wall Street for 12 years. She was head of US Institutional Equity Sales in New York for Citigroup, and Hillary was one of the highest-ranking women in the equity business.

She joined us to talk about her professional journey and becoming a female CEO, how Multiplying Good is creating nationwide community impact, and her advice for aspiring female entrepreneurs!


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 Mimi MacLean:
Welcome to The Badass CEO podcast. This is Mimi MacLean. I'm a mom of five, entrepreneur, Columbia Business School grad, CPA and angel investor. And I'm here to share with you my passion for entrepreneurship. 

Mimi MacLean:
Throughout my career I have met many incredible people who have started businesses, disrupted industries, persevered and turned opportunity into success. Each episode, we will discuss what it takes to become and continue to be a badass CEO directly from the entrepreneurs who have made it happen. If you're new in your career, dreaming about starting your own business or already an entrepreneur, the Badass CEO podcast is for you. I want to give you the drive and tools needed to succeed in following your dreams.

Mimi MacLean:
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Mimi MacLean:
Welcome back to the Badass CEO. This is your host, Mimi MacLean, and today we have on Hillary Schafer, and she is the CEO of Multiplying Good, a national non-for-profit focused on elevating public service as a means to empower individuals. They have an immersive training program, activation opportunities and prestigious awards, whose platforms help individuals and organizations create change and multiply their impact. They are one of the longest running nonprofits in the country. 

Mimi MacLean:
Prior to joining Multiplying Good in September 2013, Hillary Schafer worked on Wall Street for 12 years. She was head of US Institutional Equity Sales in New York for Citigroup, and Hillary was one of the highest ranking women in equity business. Before that, from 1995 to 1999, Hillary was executive director of Economic Security 2000, fighting to save and remodel Social Security. She earned her MBA from Columbia Business School and her BA from Middlebury College.

Mimi MacLean:
To get your top 10 tips every entrepreneur should know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips.

Mimi MacLean:
Hillary, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. Before you became the CEO of Multiplying Good, you had an amazing career in corporate America, or Wall Street, which is pretty significant because there's not many women that make it to the top, and you were head of US Institutional Equity Sales in New York for Citigroup, which is no small task. And now they even have a female CEO there too. Right?

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah, they do. It's terrific.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. So thank you so much for coming on, but I would love to talk about why you made the transition over from Wall Street in to the non-for-profit sector.

Hillary Shafer:
I mean, I think like everything great, it happened by total accident. I loved my Wall Street career, but I had been brought into Citigroup to take what was really a post-crisis flailing business and turn it around and had been successful in doing that. And at the time, I had two small children and those jobs are really exciting and really fun and really high energy, but they also eat you alive a little bit. So the expectation is to be at your desk at 6:00 AM. You work six to six. You're out two nights a week. And I'd gotten to a point where it just wasn't exciting for me anymore and I didn't feel the challenge, and it didn't seem right to me to give up all of that time with my children for something that wasn't just knocking my socks off.

Hillary Shafer:
So I walked in and quit one day and then basically said I'm going to give myself time to figure out what I wanted to do next and assumed I would stay in finance because I loved it. I was on the board of governors of what is now Multiplying Good, which was originally founded as the Jefferson Awards. And we had one of those institutional moments where we needed to remove our executive director, and we needed to think about what we wanted to be as a scale organization. So I agreed on a six to nine-month basis to come in as a board representative, interim CEO, to see what scale looked like for Multiplying Good, and that was eight and a half years ago.

Mimi MacLean:
Wow. So you've stayed. So running a non-for-profit without having actually non-for-profit experience, running it day to day, because you were actually on the board of it before, but was that hard transitioning and learning that whole other industry? Because it's probably a slower pace or there's a lot more... compared to Wall Street.

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah. I mean, I would say that it was hard and it was easy at the same time. Right? One of the beautiful things about working at the nexus of the markets and institutional clients is everything is eight fire hoses of information all day, every day. Right? It's a real learning job, which is one of the things that I loved about it. So it was a little bit like that. Right? I came into this brand-new industry and this brand-new organization and had that learning from a fire hose experience, which to me is really, really fun. I enjoy that tremendously. I still struggle a little bit with the pace. I push people really hard. It sits well with some; it doesn't sit as well with others. And the thing that was really easy for me on Wall Street is managing people was all just about the outcomes. Right? People were incentivized by what they were compensated. They were incentivized by feeling supported and doing well with their clients.

Hillary Shafer:
In the nonprofit world, people are passion driven and they're purpose driven. And so it comes from a place of soul, and the need to really feed people's soul is much higher in getting individuals to feel supported and be productive. And that's not necessarily a natural act for me, so that's been a huge learning curve. People always talk about Wall Street being a hard place to work. I actually found it a really easy place to work. The nonprofit world, again, it's motivated by different factors. And so as a result, intercollaboration between nonprofits, who should naturally spend a lot of time connecting their work for greater outcomes, just doesn't really happen. It's a little fiefish, which has been disappointing to me.

Mimi MacLean:
It's funny that you bring that up. I was just thinking that because I have this other podcast I do for Lyme, and I was thinking... Because I was reading this Lyme newsletter and I was like, God, there's so many Lyme organizations popping up. And it's like is there anything that brings them all together to make sure there's not that much duplicate or that you could have synergy off of each other? And it's so funny that you brought that up. Because I was always wondering, once you get in the nonprofit world, are people actually helping each other and...?

Hillary Shafer:
It's the most inefficient industry you can possibly imagine. And part of that is just most nonprofits are grossly under resourced. So everybody's just waking up every day trying to meet their purpose without taking the time to step back and be strategic and say if we did this, then that. If we integrated with somebody else, that would make us stronger. There's a little bit of a deficit mindset in the nonprofit world. Everybody thinks they're fighting for the same dollar, the same time, and the same resources as opposed to thinking if we put it together, maybe the dollar pie would grow or the funders would be more interested in funding intercollaboration if we're a little more honest about where we are better than anybody else.

Mimi MacLean:
Do you think it's just the money or do you think it's also they want the recognition if something changes? Like if you get from A to Z and something happens, they don't want to share the recognition, or do you think it's money? 

Hillary Shafer:
I don't think it's that. I don't think it's about the ego piece of the recognition. I think money is a big piece and time is a big piece. 

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. 

Hillary Shafer:
It takes a lot of time to successfully integrate with somebody else, and everybody is just running really hard and really fast to try to do their thing because they're so passionate about it.

Mimi MacLean:
Have you been able to create any joint ventures or partnerships with anybody?

Hillary Shafer:
Locally. We've done an amazing job of doing that. So we have full-time people on the ground in leadership communities all over the country. We've done an amazing job of integrating our work with other local organizations. Interestingly, for those organizations that have national presence, when we bring that up into with the national infrastructures, it falls apart.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah, I could see that. Can you talk a little bit about Multiplying Good and what you've done to grow it, like you talked about what transitions you've made?

Hillary Shafer:
Sure. So Multiplying Good, this is our 50th year. We're one of the few nonprofits in America that have been around for a really long time. We were founded in 1972 by Jackie Kennedy. And if you think about 1972, it actually felt a lot like today. It was a very ugly time in this country, and you could argue even uglier. It was her fundamental passion that America and Americans are inherently good and that we needed to do a much better job of changing the narrative towards that good of elevating, celebrating and multiplying what individuals are doing to make our country function and make our communities work together. And so the Jefferson Awards was founded out of that. If you think over the 50 years of national recipients, it's a real Who's Who of our nation's top change makers across every issue area you can possibly imagine.

Hillary Shafer:
But then we've also worked with companies and traditional media outlets to take the brand of the Jefferson Awards and celebrate grassroots unsung heroes and employees and use that power of celebration and the platform of the media to be about changing the narrative for good and the platform of the workplace to celebrate employees and connect it to their values. 

Hillary Shafer:
But at the heart of what we do, what we care about is service. Right? Service is an incredible tool, particularly to help people believe in themselves. Right? So 15 years ago in partnership with Deloitte, we designed what is today the nation's deepest skills-based service learning platform for teenagers. What that basically translates into is we help young people, upper middle and high school age students, figure out what they themselves care about in the world. And then we support them with a cadre of caring adults and give them a really deep curriculum that's designed to teach them the skills that translate them into the empathetic leaders and change makers our country so desperately needs. 

Hillary Shafer:
So in our 50th year, we're all about scaling that. We want to engage a million young people a year as the empathetic leaders and change makers we need. We're in the process of building a national community of service to bring people together, to be inspired by each other, to fix some of those inefficiencies we just talked about, and to deliver some resources in that will help people think about how to grow their impact. And then we really want to further that question of changing the narrative to good and for us being the brand of service recognition in the country. 

Hillary Shafer:
In terms of changing the organization, we've done I think probably two core things. The first is we focused. When I got here eight years ago, we were doing a lot of stuff and it felt really confusing to the outside world. We really focused in on what do we do that's better than any other nonprofit in the country in our area and focused in only on those things. We've hired terrific talent. We rebranded the organization. When I got here, our parent name was the Jefferson Awards. We became Multiplying Good just in 2019 because we felt that the Jefferson Awards was phenomenal for recognition of service, but it wasn't a brand that we could accomplish those three core tenants of scale around and that the country needed a brand that really said what we did. Right? People want to be part of Multiplying Good, and that rebrand has been really fundamental to our growth.

Mimi MacLean:
That's great. Now, I was on your website and I was looking at the video, which was great, about the children in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and how you... Because a lot of times I think organizations go into these underserved communities saying, oh, here, we're going to give you... we're going to give you. And you went in and said what can you give and made them feel important. I love that. So are you reaching out to only a certain type of demographic or can any child join your organization and go through that leadership?

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah. So super important, our core design principle is we create authentically diverse populations of young people because they learn from each other. Right? 

Mimi MacLean:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Hillary Shafer:
So when we go into a community, we look at census data first and then we say we're going to replicate that census data. So we want young people of low socioeconomic backgrounds and high socioeconomic backgrounds. We want young people who are already straight-A students, and we want young people who are struggling. We want young people of every color, of every race, of every ethnicity because when we bring them together, they see the world through each other's eyes. They see each other's difference. Part of what we train to is positive racial understanding, acceptance of difference, tolerance of others. But it's experiential. And young people are brilliant. Right? They go and walk into a room and they see each other as peers. They don't see each other's difference first. They see it second. It's important for them to see it and understand it and understand the world through somebody else's eyes, which is part of why this engagement with them work so well.

Mimi MacLean:
That's great. Now you have spoken about a couple of... I don't know what the right word is... difficulties or hurdles or issues since you've come to the nonprofit world as far as resources and understanding what people's motivations are. Is there anything else that you wish you knew before you joined over the past whatever it has been... eight years?

Hillary Shafer:
I mean, there's a lot of stuff just around nonprofit accounting that's very specific that took me a while to learn because it's very specific. I think it took me a long time to understand the connection between money and impact. I walked in the door and I was like, great, it's all about the operations. And three seconds in, it was clear that 60% of the job of a successful nonprofit CEO at least is raising the money to support the impact, and at the beginning I was very unhappy and shy about that.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. Because there's also asking friends or asking-

Hillary Shafer:
Yes.

Mimi MacLean:
... people you know, and then there's a lot of organizations asking. There are a lot of people always asking.

Hillary Shafer:
That's right. And so it took me a while to get comfortable and to understand that there's actually an offer into the universe of people who have the capacity to give money. It makes people feel good. It's a way of giving back. Connecting people to impact and to inspiration and to feeling good about the world is a benefit to folks. People like passion. They like enthusiasm. The like changing the world. And some people don't have time to give or they wouldn't know how to do it. So there's an incredible opportunity in that, but learning that took me a long time and was really uncomfortable for a really long time. Now I love it because it's just about connecting with people, no different than connecting with people about helping them run their funds or anything, anything where it's just about connecting with humanity. 

Mimi MacLean:
Everyone likes to help children too. If it deals with [crosstalk 00:15:39]-

Hillary Shafer:
Everyone likes to help children. Of course, they do.

Mimi MacLean:
... and if you're going to increase the chances of them being more successful and creating better impact in this world. Right? I feel like that's a great selling point. 

Mimi MacLean:
Also, do you mind if we just go back a little bit to the Citigroup? As you know, only 5% of females ever make it into the C-suite top offices in corporate America. What would you say was your characteristic or your attribute or do you have any advice for anybody who might be listening who's trying to climb the corporate ladder that helped you get there, especially in a very male-dominated arena?

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah, I mean, I would say that I never felt that my opportunity set was anything but merit based, and I never saw it that way. Right? I mean, I never saw it as I'm the only woman in the room, which I was most of the time. Every now and then I would have a moment and say, oh, wait a minute. I'm the only woman in the room. But it didn't really occur to me. I mean, I think so much of what happens in these jobs and Wall Street is it has to do with life choices more than opportunity sets. 

Mimi MacLean:
Right.

Hillary Shafer:
And when I quit, as an example, my boss said, "This is clearly a life's choice for you. What can we do to convince you to stay? What other job do you want?" And it was 2013. Right? So working from home, it existed, but you couldn't do video stuff. Right? And the trading floor, it's a big open floor. Right? There are 600 people and you walk in every day, and you walk down the floor and everybody watches what you do. But he said, "You want to work three days a week in the office and two days a week from home? And at the time, and maybe that has changed because of COVID, but I knew that that would actually build resentment. It wouldn't be an opportunity. It would end up being a bad outcome for everybody. And so, I mean, any job where you work really hard is a choice.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah.

Hillary Shafer:
Years ago, we honored Billy Jean King and one of the things that she said that stuck with me, and she said it in multiple forums, was that pressure is a privilege. Understanding that pressure is a privilege is part of how we all navigate these high-pressure jobs, whether they're on Wall Street or someplace else. 

Mimi MacLean:
Yep.

Hillary Shafer:
But we're signing up for it. And we're enjoying it sometimes, sometimes not enjoying it.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah, but the pressure is not geared towards female-male. They don't care. Because I did Wall Street for a little bit out of college, and I never felt treated very differently just because I was a female, but it was hard. I was never on the trading floor or the equity where I hear there's a lot of jokes going on and fun things with each other. So I don't think that's geared towards men or women. You just have to have a thick skin.

Hillary Shafer:
That's right. And it's really not. I experienced zero misogyny in my time on Wall Street, and I worked for multiple different bosses and I ended up being one of the highest ranking women in the equity business. It wasn't about female. Yes, there were definitely plenty of moments where, again, I was the only woman in the room, where there were jokes that could have felt offensive to me. I'm a little bit of a tomboy, so it was easy for me.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah.

Hillary Shafer:
Nothing offends me. So I didn't find it to be a challenge. It's just about comfort level. If you want to be in that business and you want to succeed in that business, the opportunity set is there. I don't think people are being excluded just because of their gender, but it's a different path, especially if you choose to have children.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. I mean, that's one reason why I left. My husband and I were like, "We both can't be bankers." How do you have a family and both be bankers? That would be next to impossible. But I do agree with you and I think now after what's happened the last couple of years, it's almost like the perfect opportunity for women because I think it's definitely on corporate America's radar like, okay, we don't have enough women. So they are looking for... If you want to be there, they're much more aware that their boardrooms are not equal or that their C-suites are not equal. So I think it's much more prevalent or they're more aware that there is an issue. So it's easier. Well, I wouldn't say it's easier, but it is a little bit easier, I think, than it probably was 30 years ago.

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah. I mean, I think what you're saying, right, is that the opportunity set has potentially changed because people are going to be working from home or have the opportunity to work from home multiple days a week maybe into perpetuity. So it makes that balancing act a lot easier because it's not at your desk six to six, out two nights a week. It might very well be at your desk six to six, three days a week, out one night a week. I think people can now make choices in a way that's totally different. And then it depends on what side of the business that you're in in Wall Street. Right? What I liked about the markets is that while that was my Monday through Friday, I never worked on Saturday and Sunday.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah, it's closed. It's not like banking where you're working all weekend. 

Hillary Shafer:
That's right. That's right. And nights was a choice. That was a choice. I was in a relationship-built business and you needed to build relationships. Again, on the nights that I was home, I was never on conference calls once I got home. When I walked in the front door, it was all about my home life. So I could separate the two completely.

Mimi MacLean:
So I think your job then and your job now are very much tied to networking-

Hillary Shafer:
Yes.

Mimi MacLean:
... and relationships, which is great. I would love to just tap on that because I do think females in general don't do that enough. And that's what men do so well, and I think they use it. They ask. They don't have a problem for asking for things, for putting themselves out there, for networking. And that is why it's easier for them to get financing if they're starting a business or a non-for-profit asking for money. So can you talk a little bit about how you've managed your networking over the past, your whole career?

Hillary Shafer:
Sure. So, I mean, first of all, I get my energy from others. I love people and I love learning what makes other people tick. Right? So whether it's in this seat or in that seat, my relationships with folks for the most part is not driven by what I want from them, but it's driven by learning about them and learning what matters to them and building real relationships. And I actually think that's a gender differentiator because men, yes, they're building these relationships, but there is always an undercurrent of great and... The other thing about being a woman in these pieces is you are different for the most part. And difference is good. Right? I mean, on Wall Street, it was great. When I first started as a salesperson, if there are a hundred people calling the CIO of some major hedge fund, two of us were female.

Mimi MacLean:
He's going to remember those two females before he's going to remember the 98 guys.

Hillary Shafer:
Exactly. Right? Once he or she picks up the phone or once you walk in the door, it's your relationship to build. Getting in the door is always the hardest part. And so relationships do matter, but they're not transactional, and that for me has been... And again, it's fun. Right? It makes my every day fun. I get on the phone with somebody. I spend an hour with them on the phone. We talk for 50 minutes about life and 10 minutes about something that might be of benefit to them and about Multiplying Good or that there is an ask. And that was on Wall Street. It's true at Multiplying Good. It's a total commonality.

Mimi MacLean:
Well, I think that's a good thing for women to hear, especially who are on the younger side, who have not done this before. Your inclination is to call somebody and have the ask without understanding that it's got to be a two-way street. Someone feels that they feel like it's genuine, that you do care. That's why it's important to remember names of the kids or what's going on in their life and being able to... If they like something, then you're sending them an article about what they might have liked. You're creating this relationship, like you said, that keeps the door open and that it's a two-way street and not just a one-way street where when they see your name, they're like, "Oh, now what does she want?"

Hillary Shafer:
That's right. I mean, it's interesting. In the nonprofit world, there are actually real metrics around it that I didn't learn when I was on Wall Street. In the nonprofit world, best of class structure or practice is between four and seven touches for every ask. Right? So you and I would have between four and seven conversations, coffees, dinners, email exchanges, whatever, before I ask you for anything.

Mimi MacLean:
It makes sense. Right? Yeah.

Hillary Shafer:
Every conversation isn't transactional.

Mimi MacLean:
Right.

Hillary Shafer:
It's about connecting. It's about relationships. I wish I'd had that on Wall Street. Now on some level, it works that way naturally because your job is to learn about somebody and what they care about and deliver into it. So your job is to give so that at some point you can get. You've earned the right to ask for them to pay you like a top three broker. 

Mimi MacLean:
Yep. 

Hillary Shafer:
But you have to earn it.

Mimi MacLean:
Because it's very personalized. I was involved in my college, and they were struggling getting the younger people giving. And I was like, well, you only reach out to them once a year when you're asking for money. I said why don't you reach out and say happy birthday. You know when their birthdays are. Or reach out and be like, hey, you live in Chicago now. I just saw you moved. Did you connect with these five people from that... Make it a little bit more personalized and people are going to want to be a part of it, and there's no problem then asking them for money. But coming once a year from your college and being like, hey, it's your time of year, it's the end of the month, it's June 1st. [inaudible 00:25:17].

Hillary Shafer:
I mean, the nonprofit statistic is that somewhere between 40% and 55% of every nonprofit dollar churns every year. So that means that every nonprofit is trying to replace between 40% and 55% of their revenue in the next year. It's crazy and part of that is because people are so transactional. They're not building relationships. They're not engaging folks. But when it gets to year end, they're going to them and saying, hey, you gave us $20 last year. Are you going to give us $20 again this year? They're like, no, I gave $20 to somebody else who engaged me. My interests changed. 

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah. 

Hillary Shafer:
Right? Your interests have to stay aligned through the course of the year in order for them to say, well, yeah, duh, of course I'm giving you the 20. In fact, you know what? I got 30 this year- 

Mimi MacLean:
Right.

Hillary Shafer:
... and I'm going to give it to you because we have a relationship.

Mimi MacLean:
Has that percentage changed since you've been there?

Hillary Shafer:
Yes. So we have one of the lowest churn rates I think probably of any nonprofit in the country. Our churn rate is maybe 10%.

Mimi MacLean:
Wow.

Hillary Shafer:
And to the point of your question earlier, I mean, we've grown our revenue by two and a half times since I got here, and every year it's gone up a little bit. Right? I mean, it took three years to stabilize our base of donors, to connect them to our mission and have them really understand what they were giving to. But once we were able to do that, it's all just been about maintaining those donors and adding or going deeper with those donors. When they think about giving their dollar, they're not giving Multiplying Good $5,000; they're giving Multiplying Good one of their larger numbers. So we've taken the opportunity to really go deeper with our donors over that same timeframe. Like in COVID, as an example, we saw almost zero churn of any donors. We got a lot of new donors and a lot of our donors gave us more money than they'd ever given us before because they wanted to make sure that we were one of the survivors.

Mimi MacLean:
Oh, that's great. I mean, that just shows you how relationships is so important for getting the money, keeping the money. So in your four to seven touches, was it you personalized calling them... I mean, that's too much for you to do... or did you have to hire people to do that? Or was it just inviting them to Zoom calls or cocktail parties? What did that look like?

Hillary Shafer:
Yes is the answer there.

Mimi MacLean:
Yeah, everything.

Hillary Shafer:
I mean, at the beginning, we were a $2.2 million organization. We're now a $5.4 million organization. The 2.2 was a small group of donors for the most part. So it was about building relationships with those donors. We have local executive directors in our leadership communities. They're all responsible for their own funding. Right? So it was just making sure that they were doing the same with their donors. So we have a cadre of folks who are in engaged with our top donors all over the country. But yeah, we had to build a development team. We had to build a communications infrastructure so that people were just getting regular touches from us of like, hey, this is what we're doing. Hey, here's some news. Even if they don't read it, you're in their inbox. 

Mimi MacLean:
Right. 

Hillary Shafer:
But for the most part... and again, it goes back to my Wall Street days. Right? You do so much in those days. Right? That six to six on a trading desk is 475 email every day, right, and 60 phone calls and it's five meetings. Right? A lot happens in that six to six day. So I'm used to volume. I learned volume. And again, I get my energy out of it. So a lot of it is just sitting down with your list and shooting off people a bajillion emails that then you translate into great, let's meet for coffee or I'll call you later. So there's probably three or four touches just in getting to we're going to go have lunch or we're going to spend half an hour on the phone. 

Mimi MacLean:
Right. Right. Well, this has been amazing. Is there anything you want us to leave on, like any advice that you have for any other female CEOs, either in profit, non-for-profit, building their companies or building their charities?

Hillary Shafer:
Yeah. I mean, what I would say just generally for female leaders out there, it's all about believing in yourself and seeing yourself through the lens of your inherent strengths, not necessarily through the lens of your gender. And for me, I've always viewed being female, particularly in environments that are predominantly male, as an opportunity, as a differentiator, and as a way for your voice to be seen and heard. And then you get to do with it what you will. So my advice is know your strengths, know your voice, believe in your strengths and your voice, and believe that people want to give you opportunities if what you're delivering matters. 

Mimi MacLean:
Well, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I wish you the best of success, and anybody who would like to either donate or give their time to this amazing organization, you can go to multiplyinggood.org.

Hillary Shafer:
Thank you so much.

Mimi MacLean:
Thank you.

Mimi MacLean:
Thank you for joining us on The Badass CEO. To get your copy of The Top 10 Tips Every Entrepreneur Should Know, go to thebadassceo.com/tips. Also, please leave a review as it helps others find us. If you have any ideas or suggestions, I would love to hear them. So email me at Mimi@thebadassceo.com. See you next week and thank you for listening.